I have to understand something.. Is this blog ment for Bashing Soldiers?? I see more of that here than I see on some Ultra Frummi Blogs!!!
Very nice pictures... it actually shows very well that it was a good protest. More importantly it shows that everyone is on the same team here... it's to bad you can't hear what they are saying because most of the time (this is for you annie) the protesters were singing love songs to Tzahal!! Also you will note the pictures of the Cops praying.. there are more of those out there with soldiers as well.. I think it shows a great thing was done here and everyone went home happy!!
soldiers who obey illegal orders are in a difficult position especially since the alternative is jail... but does that excuse the obedience?
everyone is not by any stretch of the imagination on the same team, the protesters are working to reach out to the police and soldiers with limited results at best
at the end of the day they did follow illegal orders and kept people from their friends and loved ones, cut off a part of the land of israel and arrested those who refused
not to mention sending away ambulances, arresting bus drivers and stopping buses, sending impostors to claim they represented the yesha council and sending people back home among many other things
Sultan and annie, Who the hell do you think you are?!? You see something, you have no idea the context,and you make assumptions. You get to sit in your cushy little spots in the States, staring your noses down on something you can't possible understand. You didn't get to see some of the most amazing deeds of Achdut and togetherness b/t soldier and protestor that we got to see here. Ya know, the people who are actually living through this. Soldiers and protestors davening together, talking and laughing together, crying together, hugging, sharing food and water, etc. Protestors were singing for hours these 3 words, Ohavim et Tzahal! (Translation: WE LOVE THE ARMY!) This isn't easy on any-one here, and just b/c you go to some march in Times Square and wear an orange bracelet does not mean you know what it's like, nor does it give you a right to critisize or demonize our amazing soldiers and police-men. You have no idea what they're going through. You just don't understand, and you never could. Get off your high horses!! -OC
Sultan, Are you here, in Israel rigt now? Were you there for the protests? Have you ever served in the Army? Do you have substantiated reports for your claims? And, what is your basis for claiming that these were illegal orders? B/c I can tell you for a fact that most of the things you're claiming did NOT happen. You want these things to be true, but they're just not. Sorry. -OC
Sultan - First of all I would like to understand (since you obciously know better than me) what an illegal order is??
second, The concept of the same team: the Heads of The protest and the heads of the police (who happened to be in the army together) Hugging.. and then on the news in the evening everyone was talking about how we are all on the same team (not my words) with one goal.. making sure we all stay Sane in THIS counrty!
No one is keeping anyone from any loved one.. I don't know what you smoke to make this stuff up (but Where can I get some??).. you are mixing up things that are also false.. anyone who wants to visit a loved one in the Gush can get a permit to go in.. with all the problems that do exist the people in Gush Katif are not being held in a Ghetto like you would like to believe (and if you need I can send you the defnition of a ghetto)
Sending away Ambulences?? the Ambulences left because of Money issues with the organizers of the protest!
Imposters?? are you going to tell me that this to was a conciparcy?? I think that Bantzi Liberman, Rav Aviner, and all the other heads of Yesha, and Knesset Members and Rabbis will be very offended that you called them that...
first of all I'm an Israeli currently in New York and you're going to have to do better than some 'who are you to talk cuz yo is in new york' routine, my family is military for two generations back
yes there was indeed a good deal of achdut, I have never denied that but what I have said above is fully true as well
what I've stated are facts. some have been reported in the mainstream media. there is simply no denying them. nor is there any denial of the arrests and brutalizing of demonstrators that has gone on
if you're going to argue on specific things I've stated go ahead, but if you're just going to yell, there's no point to this exchange
the achdut is well and good in the form and to the extent it occured but it will not stop what is happening
1. an illegal order is one that contravenes international human and civil rights norms, which includes ethnic cleansing
2. the police and the leaders keep talking about being on the same team which is all well and good and continues to paper over the fact that they are not on the same team. people on the same team do not destroy each other's homes, blow up their houses of prayer and dig up their dead nor do they beat and imprison 14 year old girls
3. oh yes, they can get a permit, to visit their family? do you see how warped this is. this permit will be subject to police guidelines and is temporary and will be revoked soon enough.
4. I never used the word ghetto but plenty living in gush katif have and you know it
5. reports and warnings about impostors claiming to be affiliated with the council sending people home appeared on several sites and were widely reported
Well, Sultan, if you're family really is miltary 2 generations back, then you are severely doing them a disservice by making the claims you are making. And, if you really are an Israeli, why don't you show your true support by getting back here and standing up for your people? Why would anyone deny that protestors were arrested? What does that have to do with anything? Protestors from all over the world get arrested all the time? When you protest, you are or should be aware of the fact that you may be subject to arrest. Oh yes, the police brutality. I wonder how much of that would have "happened" if other protestors weren't pulling, yanking, and hitting the police-men. Ummm...everyone knew that the settlements were going to be closed and subject to permits. Acting all surpised just shows your level of denial. And, you speaking on behalf of the settlers shows how much you want to make a point even if they dont agree with what you say, or say that what you're saying isn't true. People on the same team do make sure that the Pals don't desecrate anything. The settlers don't want the Pals to come in and take their homes and use them to hide weapons. They don't want the Pals to come in a desecrate their shuls. They don't want the Pals coming in and desecrating their families' graves. So, yes, they and the soldiers are very much on the same team and the same side. Even the settlers have said so. Don't put words in their mouths just b/c you have a need to make a point. I would like to know one credible site where you found claims of imposters. I don't claim to know what anybody who left was thinking. A lot of them were interviewed. A lot of them said that they were leaving reluctantly, but they planned on coming back. Why, reluctantly? B/c they have jobs. There wasn't enough food and water for them to stay. (This was not planned to go beyond Wed) They had to regroup and reorganize. Unlike you, I don't claim to know what anybody was thinking. But, you claim to. I didn't know you were telepathic. You talk about what the soldiers were doing and thinking when you weren't even there, and all you have is a bunch of pictures. Btw, if you believe that this order is illegal, you're in New York, organize a bunch of protestors, get your butts over to the UN or American Consulate or even to DC, and do something about it! P.S. As long as you're in New York, you're not here. So, what I said is still completely valid. -OC
as I expected... no more content than before and more apologetics mingled with weak attacks
"Why would anyone deny that protestors were arrested? What does that have to do with anything? Protestors from all over the world get arrested all the time?"
Yes they generally don't get arrested for trying to reach the homes of their friends and relatives or their own homes in some cases as people from gush katif were.
"Oh yes, the police brutality. I wonder how much of that would have "happened" if other protestors weren't pulling, yanking, and hitting the police-men."
One wonders why three policemen have such trouble dealing with a 13 year old girl without beating her but I'm sure that's just more things you'll conveniently write off.
"Ummm...everyone knew that the settlements were going to be closed and subject to permits. Acting all surpised just shows your level of denial."
I'm not acting surprised. The depths this government will sink to hardly surprise me.
"People on the same team do make sure that the Pals don't desecrate anything. The settlers don't want the Pals to come in and take their homes and use them to hide weapons. They don't want the Pals to come in a desecrate their shuls. They don't want the Pals coming in and desecrating their families' graves. So, yes, they and the soldiers are very much on the same team and the same side."
The settlers don't want the pals to take their homes or their shuls or their graves period. Since those following Sharon's orders in ensuring that all of aza will become fully under terrorist control by your own definition they are not on the same team.
"I would like to know one credible site where you found claims of imposters."
...oh but wait now you'll claim it's not credible unless Haaretz printed it
"Btw, if you believe that this order is illegal, you're in New York, organize a bunch of protestors, get your butts over to the UN or American Consulate or even to DC, and do something about it!"
Terrific blog. I love how you tell the truth about what is happening in Eretz Yisroel, even at the expense of being "politically incorrect" and having others basically call you a liar.
I spent most of my summer last year in Kfar Darom and made many friends from the Gush Katif area. I still keep in touch with them, especially during such trying times like these. I have to say that everything you say echoes what I've heard from them. It's really nice to finally see a blog that truly and accurately represents the brave halutzim of YESHA, specifically the Gush Katif / Northern Shomron residents slated for deportation and expulsion. May HaShem bless you for your activism on behalf of our brethren. Keep up the good work!
Police Commissioner Moshe Karadi decided Sunday evening that Negev region Commander Brigadier General Niso Shaham, who was caught on tape cursing pullout foes, would face a disciplinary hearing over the remarks he had made last week. Shaham's placement as sector commander during the pullout from the Gaza Strip will be delayed, though he will not be dismissed from his post.
Earlier Sunday, Shaham had been summoned to explain himself to Karadi, after he called on his men to "shit on" right-wing demonstrators at Kfar Maimon last week and said he hoped they burn.
A Channel 10 reporter recorded Shaham last Wednesday, an hour after he ordered the arrest of demonstrators gathered in the southern town by any means possible. Thousands of anti-disengagement protestors were surrounded there, attempting march to the Gaza Strip where they intended to forcibly break the IDF closure placed on the area.
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The Brigadier General was recorded saying, "I know these Haredim [ultra-Orthodox Jews]... I want arrests, arrests is what will break them..." "If needed, so hit them with batons, low...," "So they will burn, shit on them" and "I am not a whore who opens her legs... that they will learn."
Comments
The soldier and police have dead eyes.
ReplyDeleteThis means their soul has fled them.
After this, it will never return.
when people lower themselves to do evil, their give up on their soul and sucumb to the slavery to the evil orders of men
ReplyDeleteI have to understand something..
ReplyDeleteIs this blog ment for Bashing Soldiers?? I see more of that here than I see on some Ultra Frummi Blogs!!!
Very nice pictures... it actually shows very well that it was a good protest. More importantly it shows that everyone is on the same team here... it's to bad you can't hear what they are saying because most of the time (this is for you annie) the protesters were singing love songs to Tzahal!! Also you will note the pictures of the Cops praying.. there are more of those out there with soldiers as well.. I think it shows a great thing was done here and everyone went home happy!!
Please stop calling soldiers Names!
Shabbat Shalom,
-עולה ישן
soldiers who obey illegal orders are in a difficult position especially since the alternative is jail... but does that excuse the obedience?
ReplyDeleteeveryone is not by any stretch of the imagination on the same team, the protesters are working to reach out to the police and soldiers with limited results at best
at the end of the day they did follow illegal orders and kept people from their friends and loved ones, cut off a part of the land of israel and arrested those who refused
not to mention sending away ambulances, arresting bus drivers and stopping buses, sending impostors to claim they represented the yesha council and sending people back home among many other things
Sultan and annie, Who the hell do you think you are?!?
ReplyDeleteYou see something, you have no idea the context,and you make assumptions. You get to sit in your cushy little spots in the States, staring your noses down on something you can't possible understand. You didn't get to see some of the most amazing deeds of Achdut and togetherness b/t soldier and protestor that we got to see here. Ya know, the people who are actually living through this. Soldiers and protestors davening together, talking and laughing together, crying together, hugging, sharing food and water, etc. Protestors were singing for hours these 3 words, Ohavim et Tzahal! (Translation: WE LOVE THE ARMY!) This isn't easy on any-one here, and just b/c you go to some march in Times Square and wear an orange bracelet does not mean you know what it's like, nor does it give you a right to critisize or demonize our amazing soldiers and police-men. You have no idea what they're going through. You just don't understand, and you never could. Get off your high horses!!
-OC
Sultan, Are you here, in Israel rigt now? Were you there for the protests? Have you ever served in the Army? Do you have substantiated reports for your claims? And, what is your basis for claiming that these were illegal orders?
ReplyDeleteB/c I can tell you for a fact that most of the things you're claiming did NOT happen. You want these things to be true, but they're just not. Sorry.
-OC
Sultan - First of all I would like to understand (since you obciously know better than me) what an illegal order is??
ReplyDeletesecond, The concept of the same team: the Heads of The protest and the heads of the police (who happened to be in the army together) Hugging.. and then on the news in the evening everyone was talking about how we are all on the same team (not my words) with one goal.. making sure we all stay Sane in THIS counrty!
No one is keeping anyone from any loved one.. I don't know what you smoke to make this stuff up (but Where can I get some??).. you are mixing up things that are also false.. anyone who wants to visit a loved one in the Gush can get a permit to go in.. with all the problems that do exist the people in Gush Katif are not being held in a Ghetto like you would like to believe (and if you need I can send you the defnition of a ghetto)
Sending away Ambulences?? the Ambulences left because of Money issues with the organizers of the protest!
Imposters?? are you going to tell me that this to was a conciparcy?? I think that Bantzi Liberman, Rav Aviner, and all the other heads of Yesha, and Knesset Members and Rabbis will be very offended that you called them that...
Stop trying to find only the bad things in the Security forces in this country who are doing more everyday than you will do in a lifetime for Israel!!!
Shabbat Shalom,
-עולה ישן
first of all I'm an Israeli currently in New York and you're going to have to do better than some 'who are you to talk cuz yo is in new york' routine, my family is military for two generations back
ReplyDeleteyes there was indeed a good deal of achdut, I have never denied that but what I have said above is fully true as well
what I've stated are facts. some have been reported in the mainstream media. there is simply no denying them. nor is there any denial of the arrests and brutalizing of demonstrators that has gone on
if you're going to argue on specific things I've stated go ahead, but if you're just going to yell, there's no point to this exchange
the achdut is well and good in the form and to the extent it occured but it will not stop what is happening
1. an illegal order is one that contravenes international human and civil rights norms, which includes ethnic cleansing
ReplyDelete2. the police and the leaders keep talking about being on the same team which is all well and good and continues to paper over the fact that they are not on the same team. people on the same team do not destroy each other's homes, blow up their houses of prayer and dig up their dead nor do they beat and imprison 14 year old girls
3. oh yes, they can get a permit, to visit their family? do you see how warped this is. this permit will be subject to police guidelines and is temporary and will be revoked soon enough.
4. I never used the word ghetto but plenty living in gush katif have and you know it
5. reports and warnings about impostors claiming to be affiliated with the council sending people home appeared on several sites and were widely reported
and you really want to claim everyone went home happy and be taken seriously too?
ReplyDeletesigh
Well, Sultan, if you're family really is miltary 2 generations back, then you are severely doing them a disservice by making the claims you are making. And, if you really are an Israeli, why don't you show your true support by getting back here and standing up for your people?
ReplyDeleteWhy would anyone deny that protestors were arrested? What does that have to do with anything? Protestors from all over the world get arrested all the time? When you protest, you are or should be aware of the fact that you may be subject to arrest. Oh yes, the police brutality. I wonder how much of that would have "happened" if other protestors weren't pulling, yanking, and hitting the police-men.
Ummm...everyone knew that the settlements were going to be closed and subject to permits. Acting all surpised just shows your level of denial. And, you speaking on behalf of the settlers shows how much you want to make a point even if they dont agree with what you say, or say that what you're saying isn't true.
People on the same team do make sure that the Pals don't desecrate anything. The settlers don't want the Pals to come in and take their homes and use them to hide weapons. They don't want the Pals to come in a desecrate their shuls. They don't want the Pals coming in and desecrating their families' graves. So, yes, they and the soldiers are very much on the same team and the same side. Even the settlers have said so. Don't put words in their mouths just b/c you have a need to make a point.
I would like to know one credible site where you found claims of imposters.
I don't claim to know what anybody who left was thinking. A lot of them were interviewed. A lot of them said that they were leaving reluctantly, but they planned on coming back. Why, reluctantly? B/c they have jobs. There wasn't enough food and water for them to stay. (This was not planned to go beyond Wed) They had to regroup and reorganize.
Unlike you, I don't claim to know what anybody was thinking. But, you claim to. I didn't know you were telepathic. You talk about what the soldiers were doing and thinking when you weren't even there, and all you have is a bunch of pictures. Btw, if you believe that this order is illegal, you're in New York, organize a bunch of protestors, get your butts over to the UN or American Consulate or even to DC, and do something about it!
P.S. As long as you're in New York, you're not here. So, what I said is still completely valid.
-OC
as I expected... no more content than before and more apologetics mingled with weak attacks
ReplyDelete"Why would anyone deny that protestors were arrested? What does that have to do with anything? Protestors from all over the world get arrested all the time?"
Yes they generally don't get arrested for trying to reach the homes of their friends and relatives or their own homes in some cases as people from gush katif were.
"Oh yes, the police brutality. I wonder how much of that would have "happened" if other protestors weren't pulling, yanking, and hitting the police-men."
One wonders why three policemen have such trouble dealing with a 13 year old girl without beating her but I'm sure that's just more things you'll conveniently write off.
"Ummm...everyone knew that the settlements were going to be closed and subject to permits. Acting all surpised just shows your level of denial."
I'm not acting surprised. The depths this government will sink to hardly surprise me.
"People on the same team do make sure that the Pals don't desecrate anything. The settlers don't want the Pals to come in and take their homes and use them to hide weapons. They don't want the Pals to come in a desecrate their shuls. They don't want the Pals coming in and desecrating their families' graves. So, yes, they and the soldiers are very much on the same team and the same side."
The settlers don't want the pals to take their homes or their shuls or their graves period. Since those following Sharon's orders in ensuring that all of aza will become fully under terrorist control by your own definition they are not on the same team.
"I would like to know one credible site where you found claims of imposters."
http://english.katif.net/index.php?id=1487&sub=1
http://www.israelnn.com/print.php3?what=news&id=86186
...oh but wait now you'll claim it's not credible unless Haaretz printed it
"Btw, if you believe that this order is illegal, you're in New York, organize a bunch of protestors, get your butts over to the UN or American Consulate or even to DC, and do something about it!"
Done, Shabbat Shalom
Sultan---
ReplyDeleteTerrific blog. I love how you tell the truth about what is happening in Eretz Yisroel, even at the expense of being "politically incorrect" and having others basically call you a liar.
I spent most of my summer last year in Kfar Darom and made many friends from the Gush Katif area. I still keep in touch with them, especially during such trying times like these. I have to say that everything you say echoes what I've heard from them. It's really nice to finally see a blog that truly and accurately represents the brave halutzim of YESHA, specifically the Gush Katif / Northern Shomron residents slated for deportation and expulsion. May HaShem bless you for your activism on behalf of our brethren. Keep up the good work!
Shabbat Shalom!
"on the same team"
ReplyDeletehttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/603980.html
Police Commissioner Moshe Karadi decided Sunday evening that Negev region Commander Brigadier General Niso Shaham, who was caught on tape cursing pullout foes, would face a disciplinary hearing over the remarks he had made last week. Shaham's placement as sector commander during the pullout from the Gaza Strip will be delayed, though he will not be dismissed from his post.
Earlier Sunday, Shaham had been summoned to explain himself to Karadi, after he called on his men to "shit on" right-wing demonstrators at Kfar Maimon last week and said he hoped they burn.
A Channel 10 reporter recorded Shaham last Wednesday, an hour after he ordered the arrest of demonstrators gathered in the southern town by any means possible. Thousands of anti-disengagement protestors were surrounded there, attempting march to the Gaza Strip where they intended to forcibly break the IDF closure placed on the area.
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The Brigadier General was recorded saying, "I know these Haredim [ultra-Orthodox Jews]... I want arrests, arrests is what will break them..." "If needed, so hit them with batons, low...," "So they will burn, shit on them" and "I am not a whore who opens her legs... that they will learn."
lol, you're right
ReplyDeletePost a Comment